Interview with Thom Dombkowski 2000

The Value of Oral Tradition

During CLAW (Cleveland Leather Awareness Weekend) weekend this past April I was able to talk to Jimmy Dohr about Thom. When the news of Thom’s death hit me it was like a visceral blow that compelled me to sit. Things were a bit hazy for a few minutes. I wasn’t sure what to think...I was just stunned. So when I saw Jimmy, one of Thom’s oldest friends, we had a long talk and he told me everything since he was there during the transition. He told me that Thom was tired and he was ready to go. Before he laid down, he went through his closet and set aside things to be donated. Once that was over, he went to bed and slept.

When I got home I shuffled through my old floppy discs to find the interview with Thom. I was very concerned because a few years prior, I was not able to get them to read. They were old and the magnetic tape was probably deteriorated and so I kept them, not having the heart to throw them away.

After Thom’s passing, there was this renewed fervor with trying to get them to read. The problem was I couldn’t get them to read on my old computer and my new PC doesn’t have an A drive. So I was screwed.. I didn’t know what to do.

The reason why this is so special is because I didn’t know that one of the few things that I would have left to remember Thom was this interview he had graciously given this upstart journalist back in 2000. I honestly thought that he forgot about it.

While at International Mr. Leather 2006 this past May, I roomed with Mark Malan - a close friend of Thom’s and the person who would officiating the memorial that would be taking place. He was listening to Thom’s MP3 player and reading some of his last words, going over the music that would be played and reviewing some of the last words he’d written.

As I was relaxing, Mark spoke in an exceptionally audible voice as a result of the MP3 player volume and asked,
“You interviewed him?”.
“Yes”, I said...”about 6 years ago”.
“He wrote it down that you interviewed him”

I was floored that he remembered that. But then again it was widely read by a lot of leatherfolk around the country. If I recalled it received a few thousand hits that week.

“Yes, I have it at home on a floppy disc”
I didn’t want to tell him that I couldn’t access it and the magnetic tape was probably deteriorated. I didn’t have the courage and my heart sank, because this may be one of the few interviews of him that is in existence that I am personally aware of. I had no idea what I was going to do.

Fast forward
I think I found a solution, I have a lap top that uses as interchangeable drives. I can try popping the disc into the lap top’s drive... So I did that, and it worked!

Upon re-reading this interview, I remembered what it was like to be fascinated with the mystique that was IML. When I came to know this, I virtually deified these leather folk. There seemed to be this magical feeling, that I wanted to be a part of. I think Thom had a lot to do with cultivating this idea of magic.

Its 2006 and I have a few IML’s under my belt, I know that there really is no magic now, but the first two times I attended it was. Fault me as a romantic, I can definitely say however that it is my memory and my history.

Interview with Thom Dombkowski
November 6th 2000

Almost 50 years ago, Thom Dombkowski was born into a traditional blue-collar Catholic family in Rochester, New York. While he began to awaken to his true sexuality during puberty, it was not until his sophomore year at the University of Notre Dame (in 1970) that he "came out of the closet" and never looked back. He was graduated from Notre Dame with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Government and International Relations in 1972, and he later earned his Juris Doctor degree from DePaul University's College of Law in 1977.Dombkowski's professional career began in 1974 at the Chicago District Office of the Internal Revenue Service, where he got to know the city as a front-line collection Revenue Officer. He later became an On-the-Job Instructor, then a Group Manager, and finally a Regional Analyst. During this period, he became acquainted with many of Chicago's gay and lesbian business owners.About that same time, Dombkowski discovered "leathersex," and he was apprenticed for two years to John FG Shawhan, a Master in the tradition of the Old Guard. Thereafter, he was sent out on his own, finding a home space at the Gold Coast and Redoubt, Chicago's classic leather bars of the late '70s and early '80s. He was a contestant for the1980 Mr. Gold Coast title, but he didn't "make the cut" to the all-important stage question round; as a consolation prize, however, he went home with Phil Spence, the bar's manager. This led him to a string of liaisons with the bartenders of both the Gold Coast and the Redoubt, culminating in a five-year relationship with Chuck Probert.
Dombkowski became a Daddy early on, nurturing a number of younger men over the years. His Denver friends made a "gift" to him for IML1984 in the person of Ronald Calvin Moore, whom Dombkowski and John Shawhan coached to victory that May. This gave him a real behind the scenes look at International Mr. Leather, and sparked his curiosity for future involvement. He repeated this experience with Thomas Karasch in 1987.When AIDS hit Chicago, he stepped forward to co-found Chicago House, the Midwest's first residence program for people living with AIDS. He left the Internal Revenue Service in 1985 to lead this social service agency, turning to advantage the skills he learned in parting people from their money involuntarily.

In 1986, as Executive Director of Chicago House, Dombkowski addressed the audience at the IML contest and solicited funds for PWAs for the first time in the contest's history. He repeated this over the next four years, and he created annual auction activities that included former titleholders, the signed IML posters, and even Chuck Renslow's hairpiece. For two years, Dombkowski's head was shaved as an additional inducement for funds to be donated.

In 1991, as Dom Orejudos' health was failing, Dombkowski was tapped by Orejudos and Chuck Renslow to serve as Tally master and Judges' Coordinator, giving him insight into the IML judging process. Later that year, Dombkowski was invited to succeed Dom Orejudos as IML Chief Judge. Dombkowski's tenure as Chief Judge began at IML1992, and the contest expanded to become a three-day affair, with Friday being a time for registration and orientation, and preliminary judging interviews spread over both Saturday and Sunday.

Professionally, Dombkowski moved from Chicago House to Howard Brown Health Center, where he served as the Staff Writer for two years, and then to the Chicago Department of Public Health where he served as the Program Director for Grants Management and Information between 1992 and his disability retirement in March of 1999.

Personally, Dombkowski is involved in two long-term relationships. He has been partnered with James Owen, his Chicago lifemate, since June of 1985. And he has maintained a long distance relationship for six years with David Harper, his Berkely, California boyfriend, traveling companion and fuck buddy. These are both open relationships, and Dombkowski is always happy to entertain (and be entertained by) a Dominant Son.
His passion is world travel, something he embarked on after a year of therapy and learning to take care of himself and his needs. In May of 2000, he achieved a personal goal of visiting all seven continents before his 50th birthday. Now, he plans to focus on 'reaching the 12 states that he has yet to visit; Dombkowski's 2000 remaining travel plans include Oregon, Ottawa, New England, Toronto, Berlin and Hanover, and Florida. IML2001 will mark his 10th year as Chief Judge, and Dombkowski plans on remaining there for as long as his health allows him

1. Describe the leather community in your area after you "came out into leather."

The Gold Coast at 501 North Clark Street in Chicago was one of the first gay bars I ever frequented, back in 1971 when I was still a student at the University of Notre Dame. After I was graduated in 1972, and while I was living in South Bend, Indiana, my then-partner, a friend and I regularly made the trip up for the Sunday afternoon movie (and orgy) at the Gold Coast. When we moved to Chicago in 1974, it became our regular bar. Those were the days of sexual freedom, when quantity was more important than quality -- and practice with a number of partners made sex "perfect" with the ones who would come later, so to speak. In 1977, I was introduced to a man some 25 years my senior who was a true gentleman of the Old Guard. Jack Shawhan taught me about "leather" and myself, and He was my Master. I cared for Him and His house and His leather. For two years, this was almost an ideal relationship. By day, I was working my way up the career ladder at the Internal Revenue Service, and at night and on weekends, I was collared and serving the man I loved. After two years, He told me that He had taught me what He could, and that it was time for me to find someone my own age and He sent me back out into the world.

Leather in Chicago in the late 1970s and early 1980s was political -- Chuck Renslow and Jim Flint operated the predominant leather bars, the Gold Coast and the Redoubt, across Illinois Street from each other. The feud between Macy's and Gimbel's had nothing on these two -- although for a time, there actually was a truce and they got along. (One year, Jim Flint actually served as the emcee for International Mr. Leather.) This competitive nature was reflected in the clubs of the day, as well -- there were quite a few at the time, but none had more than ten members. That number was like a critical mass that couldn't be passed -- if membership reached that point, the group would splinter and a new club would form. (In Chicago, this was the norm -- two choral groups developed, two sports leagues, and so on.)

The most appropriate term I could suggest is "transitional." The Old Guard was still around, but the overwhelming numbers of men were in their late 20s and early 30s, and not bound by traditions. Sexual freedom was the order of the day. I feel quite fortunate that I was apprenticed to an Old Guard Master, and that my early leather was "earned." My Master even crafted my first collar and harness Himself, and had my boots made to order, as well. But I am also glad that I was able to choose my own partners thereafter, and to explore on my own.

2. What were some of the predominant social issues during that time as well?

We had to face the Anita Bryant issue in the 1970s, and that probably brought together many of us who are now the "old timers" of the Chicago community. Equal rights have been important to leatherfolk here in Chicago all along, and it was the leadership and financial support of men like Chuck Renslow and his family that planted the seed that grew into our city's Human Rights Ordinance in the late 1980s.

Of note to me, as well, was the annual collaborative charity effort undertaken by the leather clubs at Christmas. This involvement by Renslow, Flint, Harley McMillen, Chuck Probert, Chuck Kiser, Gino Mandile, Jim Piehl, Gary Chichester, RJ Chaffin and others was a precursor to the early AIDS fundraising activities that would soon evolve.

Historical Note: In 1977 Anita Bryant spearheaded a movement to overturn a gay rights ordinance in Dade County, Florida. In addition, she was touring nationally on the concert circuit. According to Mr. Dombkowski, the Chicago leather community raised money for Florida to protest her movement.

3. What attracted you to the leather lifestyle

Camaraderie, leadership, masculinity, imagination, integrity, loyalty, and good sex. Leathermen exuded these qualities for me, and this seemed to be a good starting point for friendships.

4. Aside from your many accomplishments, you have spent many years working for the community, and volunteering your time for many worth while causes, are there any reasons why you choose to volunteer so much of your time?

When I had more energy and stamina to volunteer -- before I took a disability retirement from the City of Chicago -- I felt it very important for me to give back to the community to which I belonged, which accepted me for who and what I am, and which became my extended family.

My folks died at relatively young ages -- my Mom at 53 and my Dad at 60, and I was never really close to my brother. So the "community" became very important to me. When my first partner, my Notre Dame sweetheart, was diagnosed among the first 100 AIDS cases here in Chicago, I turned to the community for support and I found it there. I was able to use my ties to the leather community -- both from my personal relationships, as well as from my work with the Internal Revenue Service, to motivate other volunteers on the crusade to take care of our own. The leather community in Chicago was hit hard and fast by AIDS. Many club members were among the first to go. This was my family that was sick and dying. I had no choice but to step forward and offer myself.

I am certain that what I had learned about myself under my Master's guidance helped me to do what I was able to accomplish in co-founding Chicago House and working for other causes. Wanting to preserve the memories of those who were already gone motivated me to recommend creation of the Chicago Gay and Lesbian Hall of Fame.

My volunteer work with the International Mr. Leather contest over the years was of mutual benefit -- it helped charitable causes, but it also introduced me to many men and women I would not otherwise have met.

5. After the passing of Dom Orejudos, you were named IML chief judge, what are some of the most significant changes in leather contests since that time?

For International Mr. Leather, the most significant change came in expanding the schedule to become a full weekend of events, whereas theretofore almost everything took place on one day -- the contestant interviews took place on Sunday morning and afternoon and the contest that night. It was a grueling day for everybody concerned.

My first year (1992) as Chief Judge saw the interviews go to a two-day schedule -- and I hope that the IML weekend will further expand to a 4-day event to allow more time for the contestants to interact with each other and with the judges.

We also changed the final scoring process from one that assigned numerical ratings to various categories (Interview, Speech, Physique, etc.) to one that gives a single overall score that encompasses these individual factors, as well as leather image and interaction with others. In analyzing the categorical scores and talking about these, I found that the sum of the parts did not necessarily equal the whole.

I am also especially proud that IML has invited men of color and women to serve as judges, and in 2001, IML will have its first deaf judge.

Over the past few years, I have advocated for an earlier selection of the IML judges panel to allow for an increase in the interaction time between contestants and judges. And unlike other contests -- and not without some controversy, IML has encouraged its judges to spend "quality time" with these men, really interviewing them to find out what they are all about. My IML2000 experience, as outlined on eStevan deCastro's website, describes my year and travels. I see nothing wrong in having dinner or coffee with any contestant -- it's my job as Chief Judge to find and bring out the best in each of the men who will stand before me and the IML judges panel. IML2000 also brought the internet into the equation, as many of my pre-IML conversations took place over the computer, and I think that will be further expanded for 2001 -- especially with a deaf judge, and an Australian judge. Communication and conversation are keys to selecting the next IML.

6. What was the funniest incident that had taken place during IML?

I think it was Saturday night of IML1995. Guy Baldwin and I were sitting on the stoop to the baggage-check room along the main floor corridor of the Congress Hotel. getting caught up on life, in general, as well as commenting on "the boys" as they slowly returned to the hotel from various bars and parties. Well, the Radical Faeries are always well-represented at IML , and one of them wore a wedding dress over his chaps that year. When he came flouncing in the door, Guy and I looked at him, looked at each other and just fell out on the floor laughing until we cried -- now picture that: IML's Chief Judge and IML1989 rolling around on the floor uncontrollably. It was NOT pretty, but it made the weekend.

And then as others filtered in, we became a living tableau of leatherdom: Guy and me, joined by Tony DeBlase, Mr. Marcus, Jeff Tucker, Ron Moore, Amy Marie Meek, Woody Bebout and a number of others...

7. What was the most touching incident that had taken place during IML?

How to explain this? Every year, I try to describe what I call "the magic" that takes place during the International Mr. Leather weekend. It is a spirit, an energy, a power that transcends us individually, that binds us together that breathes new life that guides.

I witnessed this phenomenon quite literally in 1991, when I served as the Judges' Coordinator, Tally master and Press Liaison. This was Dom's last year as Chief Judge and he was already quite sick. I could see his strength ebb as the long interview day went on. The amazing Henry Romanowski was a judge that year, and he sat at Dom's side through the long process. I don't recall that Henry ever asked a question, but he did keep his hand on Dom's arm much of the day. By late afternoon, it was obvious to me that Dom was very tired. I wasn't certain whether he had the stamina to continue, and then I saw it -- there was a beam of white light coming down from above that passed into Henry and moved through his hand into Dom. I know that sounds odd, but I know that I saw it -- and Dom seemed to get one last burst of energy to last through the day. While I was tallying the scores, he told me how tired he was and he wasn't certain whether he would be able to make it through the evening contest. Chuck Renslow ordered him to sleep for a few hours, and I was in tears as I put the list of 20 finalists together.

And every year as Chief Judge, I have known that this special energy and spirit surround us. That is a primary factor in why I am so emotional every year -- I know that there is something "more" that happens when we come together as "family."

I think that "my" IMLs: Lenny, Henri, Jeff, Larry, Joe, Kevin, Tony, Bruce, and Mike would all agree that they have experienced "the magic" at some point during their IML weekend.

8. You were around before the leather credo "safe sane and consensual" existed, how has SM play changed since that time?

We talk about our desires, our wants, and our needs more than we did before -- and this communication saves lives, and also results in more satisfying play. I have always felt that the best sexual organ is the brain, and therefore, this appeals to me.

Some folks are more discriminating in the numbers of people whom they will bed, and many take some manner of safety precautions in the activities in which they engage. Overall, I think that we are much better educated about sex and health matters, and therefore, the decisions that we make are informed decisions.

9. Aside from producing an informed and technically sound community, do you think that technology can or will have any adverse affects on the leather community? Why?

Technology can be good, if it is combined with the very human quality of "honesty." Recently we saw that honesty was lacking in what was the end product of the IML2000 video shoot -- most of us were expecting to see a real documentary, and instead we were handed a porno film -- and a BAD porno film, at that. There are some folks who hide behind their internet facades, playing various games rather than coming out and being who they really are. I had mentioned elsewhere that I used e-communications in getting to know many of the IML2000 contestants. This alone is insufficient -- it cannot replace sitting across from someone and looking into his eyes, knowing what he is saying is truthful and real.

The issue of privacy ever lurks in the background -- so many websites and pages that are of interest to leatherfolk contain graphic sexual materials and information. One cannot help but feel "watched" from time to time -- and it behooves one to take the steps necessary to guard access to one's files and one's privacy.

David M.